Author Topic: Melolune TVtropes page  (Read 5395 times)

Unnamed

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Re: Melolune TVtropes page
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2012, 03:43:42 PM »
Oh nooo, I really didn't mean to be that harsh. :(
Now I have emotional issues too, I really feel bad that it all resulted this. I'm sorry! :'(

Though I can't resist to note that it's a normal temper for a critical debate, which is common on the Internet (and it's far from flaming or trolling or disrespective behaviour). Though I see it's unfamiliar here. I'll try to be more careful in the future.

Strawfairy

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Re: Melolune TVtropes page
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2012, 03:49:46 PM »
It's alright Unnamed, we'll just have to be careful in the future. ^^


supershigi

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Re: Melolune TVtropes page
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2012, 03:57:00 PM »
Quote from: Unnamed
Oh nooo, I really didn't mean to be that harsh.
Now I have emotional issues too, I really feel bad that it all resulted this. I'm sorry!

Though I can't resist to note that it's a normal temper for a critical debate, which is common on the Internet (and it's far from flaming or trolling or disrespective behaviour). Though I see it's unfamiliar here. I'll try to be more careful in the future.

No worries... But just pointing out: it was far from a "critical debate" -- Strawberry merely asked a question.  That's why your response was unnecessarily harsh :P 
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 03:58:42 PM by supershigi »

Unnamed

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Re: Melolune TVtropes page
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2012, 03:59:42 PM »
All right, then. :) Anyway, I'd really like if you read the least of my message, because my explanation is pretty good, I think.

Omni

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Re: Melolune TVtropes page
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2012, 01:32:00 PM »
Oh nooo, I really didn't mean to be that harsh. :(
Now I have emotional issues too, I really feel bad that it all resulted this. I'm sorry! :'(

Though I can't resist to note that it's a normal temper for a critical debate, which is common on the Internet (and it's far from flaming or trolling or disrespective behaviour). Though I see it's unfamiliar here. I'll try to be more careful in the future.


*patpat*  It's okay.  It seems like this happens to me all.

Of.

The.

Time.  (Particularly on the internet.)

I think I'll note that Strawberry sounded fairly critical to me as well. :/  Overall, I think this was a case of 'communication sucks without having at least an audible tone of voice to go by' (which seems like it should have a trope, but I haven't spotted one like that yet).

... I was going to add something else, but I got lost in Tropes and forgot what it was. ^_^;  I guess you could say that, tone aside, I still feel that Unnamed's response was pretty valid.  Also, while Unnamed may have sounded rude, angry, or harsh, I don't think that's reason enough to tell him about such in a rude-or-angry-or-otherwis-harsh way as well. ^_^;


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Strawfairy

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Re: Melolune TVtropes page
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2012, 02:11:09 PM »
I'm not really sure what you guys mean by sounding critical, but to me - I sounded confused. I just wanted something cleared up. It's as simple as that, really.

Unnamed, shouldn't have said, "WOW. Way to completely miss the point" to me. That's the only part that sounded rude to me. It made me sound like I'm dumb and I should know what's going on - which I don't.

I know what the site is about, and I've been there before reading some tropes on games/webcomics and it just sounds like they're poking fun at them. I got kind of sad reading them actually, wondering about my own creations.

Though, I guess if someone did think my story/game was good enough, that they'd fully analyze it, then I would think I did something right. Lols. I don't know.

It's just really confusing, I guess. /shrug


Unnamed

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Re: Melolune TVtropes page
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2012, 06:24:06 PM »
I think I'll note that Strawberry sounded fairly critical to me as well. :/  Overall, I think this was a case of 'communication sucks without having at least an audible tone of voice to go by' (which seems like it should have a trope, but I haven't spotted one like that yet).

I avert this trope. I'm such a textual being. Usually I can't explain stuff in real-life as well as by text.

Unnamed, shouldn't have said, "WOW. Way to completely miss the point" to me. That's the only part that sounded rude to me. It made me sound like I'm dumb and I should know what's going on - which I don't.

Let me explain. While the "WOW. You're completely missing the point." part really had some snarky edge, it didn't mean to be hurtful in any way. Because I recognised myself that it can be interpreted in the wrong way (the way you explained above), I continued my post with this: "Even though it's really easy to misinterpret the site's intention - I remember when I read the first page there, I also had a feeling that the site's mocking one of my favourite shows for not being original, and it felt bad, though just a little bit.". By admitting that the site's intention is so easy to misinterpret that I also did it myself, I eliminated the possible unfortunate implications of the previous sentence: it proves that I didn't mean to imply that you're dumb or you should have known what's going on in the first place (or the other interpretation would be that I think I'm just as dumb as you, which is unlikely because it's almost as unfortunate as the original possible negative interpretation I wanted to avoid).
Q. E. D.

The only thing you should have done to avoid the misunderstanding is to continue reading my post, because a text should be interpreted as a whole. By concentrating only one sentence of it, you practically quote mined my text - which is something that I could take the wrong way... which I don't. Of course then I shouldn't have included that unfortunate sentence, but frankly I couldn't imagine that it would lead to this.

I had to explain this because I really wouldn't like to stay in the state of guilt for a misunderstanding. It just happens. Anyway, I wouldn't like to talk about this case anymore, I think it's overtalked already. We should discuss tropes here...

So please love, peace, fluffy bunnies (and cats!), Leebles, and everything... and berries!


Other (unrelated) thing: I've found an ally! \o/ As I was browsing TV Tropes, I got to a random troper's page: ccoa. The only thing I've known before I've seen her profile that she's really into TV Tropes. Then I liked her profile that much (particularly the "software engineer" and "makes videogames and writes" parts) that I had to send her a PM, asking her help to find certain video game tropes. Her answer surprised me:

Quote from: ccoa
Oh, Melolune has a playable demo? Way to go, Shigi! I'm going to have to play that.

I'd be happy to help trope it and help you find related tropes. Ask away.

You can also open a thread in the Video Games subforum to talk about/pimp/trope the game.

It turned out she knows Shigi, and she's already heard about Melolune (they've met on certain forums previously). Though Shigi is pretty famous, it's still amusing that a totally random folk I encounter on a totally different site, knows her.

It's so awesome to have a hardcore troper to help with the Melolune trope page! She's already cleaned up the page and added the Ridiculously Cute Critter trope, which applies to Leebles. :) I wish she joined here!

supershigi

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Re: Melolune TVtropes page
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2012, 10:50:11 PM »
There is no way anyone could rationally interpret Strawberry's initial response as being critical.  Let me copy and paste what she said:

Quote from: Strawberry
Excuse me for being silly, but I has a question:

Why would someone want tropes for their creation?

If you preface your question with "excuse me for being silly," and follow that up with a rational question, you are not being critical, you are politely asking a reasonable question.

Quote from: Unnamed
By admitting that the site's intention is so easy to misinterpret that I also did it myself, I eliminated the possible unfortunate implications of the previous sentence: it proves that I didn't mean to imply that you're dumb or you should have known what's going on in the first place (or the other interpretation would be that I think I'm just as dumb as you, which is unlikely because it's almost as unfortunate as the original possible negative interpretation I wanted to avoid).

Okay, for future reference: If you don't want to come off as being snarky or condescending, the most effective way to communicate that is to refrain from opening your explanation with a snarky and condescending sentence.  The other benefit to this, is that more people will be inclined to read what you have to say. 

Quote from: Unnamed
The only thing you should have done to avoid the misunderstanding is to continue reading my post, because a text should be interpreted as a whole. By concentrating only one sentence of it, you practically quote mined my text - which is something that I could take the wrong way... which I don't. Of course then I shouldn't have included that unfortunate sentence, but frankly I couldn't imagine that it would lead to this.

Lesson in good communication: Do not start off your post with an unwarranted snarky and slightly condescending sentence if you want the person to continue reading.  Like I said earlier -- this was not a critical debate, and I'm not sure why you took it as such.  If you look at Strawberry's initial post, she apologized for "being silly" and then asked a perfectly reasonable question.  Responding with "WOW. You completely missed the point" was a disproportionate response. 

I understand that you didn't mean any harm.  But it was in no way Strawberry's responsibility to read the rest of your post.  If you want someone to take the time to read your posts, you have to be polite.  If you start off with a rude sentence that was completely uncalled for, there is no reason for her to continue reading.  The rest of your post didn't somehow make the first sentence reasonable.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 11:04:23 PM by supershigi »

Omni

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Re: Melolune TVtropes page
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2012, 02:07:48 AM »
What did he do right? :/


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supershigi

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Re: Melolune TVtropes page
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2012, 02:53:45 PM »
Quote from: Unnamed
Other (unrelated) thing: I've found an ally! \o/ As I was browsing TV Tropes, I got to a random troper's page: ccoa. The only thing I've known before I've seen her profile that she's really into TV Tropes. Then I liked her profile that much (particularly the "software engineer" and "makes videogames and writes" parts) that I had to send her a PM, asking her help to find certain video game tropes.

Ah, that's really cool!  I remember ccoa being into tropes -- I think that's actually how I might have first heard about that site.  She's like a super woman... I remember being really impressed that she was able to contribute so much to the rpg maker community while also holding a full-time software engineer job and raising children.  I hope she's doing well.

Unnamed

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Re: Melolune TVtropes page
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2012, 12:46:14 AM »
What did he do right? :/

I'm also really curious...

Shigi...... I really didn't like your message you posted above. I hope it wasn't your original intention, but I felt it quite condescending (which is ironical, after your not-to-be-condescending rant) and also humiliating. The part that "There is no way anyone could rationally interpret Strawberry's initial response as being critical." actually renders me (and also Omni) irrational, which is kind of offending for me.

I read Strawberry's sentences in a slightly sarcastic tone, it left me with the impression that she not only doesn't know tropes, but she also dislikes them, has prejudice against them, and thus it sounded critical. Now I understand she didn't mean it that way, and I got it after she said "I'm not really sure what you guys mean by sounding critical, but to me - I sounded confused.". I had no problems with reinterpreting her sentences as she meant it.

And "WOW. You're completely missing the point." wasn't even rude. I was just jesting. I didn't mean it as Strawberry is dumb or something. You completely misinterpreted it. Anyway, why would I be rude to Strawberry, since I happen to like her? Or course I won't tell her rude sentences!

Besides, it all is irrelevant now, since I understood that Strawberry wasn't critical, Strawberry understood I didn't mean any harm, and so we're all right, as we both confirmed. And I learned that I won't post such risky sentences in the future, and I understood that regardless it wasn't a rude sentence, I still shouldn't have posted it, because it can be pretty much easily misinterpreted, as some of you demonstrated. Finally, I must tell that I find it ridiculous that I'm still being persecuted for a single misinterpreted sentence I posted more than a week ago.


Quote from: Unnamed
Other (unrelated) thing: I've found an ally! \o/ As I was browsing TV Tropes, I got to a random troper's page: ccoa. The only thing I've known before I've seen her profile that she's really into TV Tropes. Then I liked her profile that much (particularly the "software engineer" and "makes videogames and writes" parts) that I had to send her a PM, asking her help to find certain video game tropes.


Ah, that's really cool!  I remember ccoa being into tropes -- I think that's actually how I might have first heard about that site.  She's like a super woman... I remember being really impressed that she was able to contribute so much to the rpg maker community while also holding a full-time software engineer job and raising children.  I hope she's doing well.

I wouldn't know how she's doing exactly, but soon you'll have the chance to ask her! You know, I took the liberty to invite her to this berry forum, and she's already registered. ;) I hope she's going to turn up in the next few weeks. She said she needs her laptop fixed first.

supershigi

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Re: Melolune TVtropes page
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2012, 01:20:13 AM »
1.) You are not being persecuted.  The reason I wrote the 2nd post was because although your initial response indicated that you understood that sort of reaction was harsh/unecessary; you seemed to renege on your position afterwards by trying to justify what you wrote.  I completely understand that you did not mean to be harsh, but the point still remains that responding to a polite question with a snarky and condescending remark is going to be perceived as unnecessarily aggressive.  You treated it (as you said yourself) as a "critical debate," which it clearly wasn't.  No one is saying you are a harsh person.  No one is saying you meant to be harsh when you wrote that.  We're only saying that the statement itself in that context was inappropriate, and to please avoid that in the future :)

2.) There really is no logical justification for interpreting Strawberry's intial post as critical.  Just because you call something "critical" does not make it so -- there was no evidence (contextual or otherwise) to support that claim.  I've offered the following: She prefaced a politely worded question with a disclaimer that she was being silly.  She closed with a direct statement indicating her state of mind: "confused."  There is no logical reason to infer sarcasm or criticism.  The only reasonable justification for interpreting her post as critical and/or sarcastic would be if there were examples of that sort of behavior elsewhere on the forum; but there isn't.  So no, my message wasn't offensive, it was objective: "critical" is not a logical inference based on what Strawberry wrote. 

Quote from: Unnamed
And "WOW. You're completely missing the point." wasn't even rude. I was just jesting. I didn't mean it as Strawberry is dumb or something. You completely misinterpreted it.

You have to understand that just because you didn't mean to be rude, it doesn't make the statement itself any less rude in that context.  And if spellbunny, Strawberry, the staff and I all "misinterpreted" your intentions, it was because it was indeed a rude statement.  Now does this mean we think you meant harm now that you've explained it?  No, of course not :)

Please understand -- At this point we all know that you didn't mean any harm.  The argument isn't whether or not you meant harm, it's that a statement like "WOW. You're completely missing the point" in response to a polite question is easily going to be perceived as unnecessarily aggressive in that context.  It's not everyone else's responsibility to assume a poster doesn't mean harm when they write something better suited for a critical debate in response to a polite question.  It is the poster's responsibility to try and be aware of whether or not that kind of statement is appropriate.

So to sum it up: We know that you didn't mean any harm.  In that context, the statement seemed harsh, but we know you didn't mean it.  In the future, please be more aware of whether or not the way you word something is appropriate/harsh/etc. 

Beyond that, it's not a big deal at all.  So let's just get back to the thread.  Any further discussion about the other stuff will be deleted and a warning will be issued.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 02:19:15 AM by supershigi »

Omni

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Re: Melolune TVtropes page
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2012, 04:19:50 PM »
Beyond that, it's not a big deal at all.  So let's just get back to the thread.  Any further discussion about the other stuff will be deleted and a warning will be issued.

How about in PMs or another thread?  I'm really, really not fond of when someone states their latest opinion/view/observation as 'final' without giving the other party a chance of stating their next/full counter-point. >.<
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 04:22:44 PM by Omni »


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spellbunny

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Re: Melolune TVtropes page
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2012, 05:21:54 PM »
^ to be quite honest at this point it's all about thread derailment.

I think it's fair to say that we all understand everyone's point of view now; and most importantly that this was a simple misunderstanding over the tone of the conversation. We can't keep arguing about that. That being said a private message rather than public forum would be best although knowing when to drop an issue is also important.

supershigi

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Re: Melolune TVtropes page
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2012, 08:58:49 PM »
Quote from: Omni
How about in PMs or another thread?  I'm really, really not fond of when someone states their latest opinion/view/observation as 'final' without giving the other party a chance of stating their next/full counter-point. >.<

This is not a debate: At this forum, it is not okay to respond to polite questions with condescending remarks.  We know he didn't mean to come off that way, and we know he'll consider his choice of wording in the future in order to prevent miscommunication: end of story.  As spellbunny said, there is really no point to keep arguing about that here or in a PM.  It's time to drop this.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 09:04:37 PM by supershigi »